Wednesday, February 11, 2009

Caught in the Cookie Jar!

Talk about getting caught red handed!

What I'm talking about is we always knew our commercial friend was PMing behind the scenes and saying a wholelotta crap... dare I say not just making things up but flat out lying just to boonswaggle someone into buying into his tale of superiority and being all knowing?

The fact is this gent knows nothing about colors and his mixes prove it. Nothing is done 'scientifically', but depending on what mood you catch him in he'll either say it was, or denounce it all as rubbish. The simple proof is over the past couple of years his mixes have changed at least 30 times! My question is this, if it is the best, then why is it constantly changing? Would that not mean that what they sold someone on as being the best previously now is inferior? Why even change something if it is the best in the first place? And no I am not talking about his variety of shades, even the base main mix constantly changes.

Get ready because this is a long one and he still has his hand in the cookie jar but right now doesn't know he was busted!

I think the rebuttles should be in follow up comments, otherwise this will be as long as War an Peace! Anyway, this is a forwarded message our buddy Maurice sent to someone behind the scenes trying to convince them his mix is the only mix anyone should ever think of using...

Quote:Originally Posted by MississippiMan
Hi,

There is an inherent fallacy to the use of Aluminum's "Graying" tendencies. If enough Aluminum "Fine" is used to produce enough reflectivity and contrast enhancement to make a BW's performance be up to par with other "Mica Based" metallic mixes, the result is a dark mix. That cannot be changed or avoided. And that dark Gray is going to eat up more of a percentage of the lumens than is desirable, and serve to crush whites despite all the reflectivity (...the latter only helps colors to seem more vivid, but dull, gray "whites" spoils that effect and lessens the overall "PoP" and "Sizzle" of the image. It also restricts the size screen that can me considered unless one possesses a true Light cannon...

The single most unique aspect of Black Widow is how a beige Base serves as the offset / dilution factor to the aluminum's dark Gray consistency, and keeps the mix fairly neutral. Credit is due that a balance (...on the darker end...) was found, but quite honestly, that is all there is, and all that is possible.

If the amount of Aluminum is decreased to lessen the hue of "gray" then too much reflectivity is lost and the screen becomes merely a light gray screen with no claim to any appreciable benefits of a simple neutral gray paint.

Add a higher percentage of Aluminum and you get granularity and abusive reflectivity along the lines of extreme retro-reflectivity.

All of this is, and has been well known. For years in fact. That is why the use of aluminum in this manner is / was essentially abandoned.....it presented too narrow a range of acceptable performance potential.

For a few years, the powers behind BW railed against the use of reflective Mica in paint as being detrimental, even though testing and actual use proved that it has a wonderful range of adjust-ability. They were fixated on the use of simple neutral Grays....which failed to impress anyone.

And God forbid they make any attempt to come down on the side of Silver Fire, MMud-SE (silver edition) RS-MaxxMudd or ANY DIY Mix proved popular and useful by me and others. Sad that, because it all was based simply on avoiding validating any application I, and a few others had made popular through proven results.

Instead they went after "a simple neutral Gray" and had to try to re-invent the use of non-interference powders, something I tried, reported on, and discounted back in 2004.(...a tinted base and one reflective ingredient...) believing that the DIY'ers would rally around a something less complex that was something different beyond the more complex mixes that performed so "over the top", but that required more effort to "get there".

They then touted that their efforts were backed by having taken courses in Color Theory, and because they use extensive use of color mapping graphs. So their mix had to be superior....had to be the best yet. They were determined to supplant the popularity of proven DIY applications by sheer force of will and effort.

And because of a ridiculous amount of promotion and effort across several Forum fronts, they managed by sheer force of inundation to do exactly that. But the backlash started almost immediately. BW in original form is quite a dark Gray, and the amount of Aluminum in it MUST be masked by the darkness or it would be far too reflective..

Dilute the Gray with a white and all you have is a reduction in both ambient light potential (...that was their original goal in competition with Silver Fire...) and aluminum's over stated reflectivity.

The consistency of the aluminum flakes is not the answer....it's already well known that the "Fine" variety is the only acceptable choice because of granularity issues.

If one is aware of these facts, one can see why there has been such a delay in rolling out any lighter mix.....that is because they are distressed at finding that what Mississippiman told them 1 year ago is coming to pass. That they have a limited application that works well within a narrow range. But only almost 'as good as" other substantiated performers. I say "almost" because aluminum's caveats make the use of a darker BW mix problematical and dependent wholly upon screen size, and PJ luminosity.

Quantum, for any Paint, Substrate, or combination of Paint on Substrate to be a well balanced DIY application, it simply has to be adjustable to a wide variety of circumstances. BW is not in that grouping.Yes, it works....but so do several other applications. And some of them work decidedly better over a much wider range.

Sadly for some DIY'ers with no patience, or even less skills, the desire for "simple" will continue to rule their decision making process. And so being, over-hyped and excessively promoted promises of "The best results possible in the easiest manner." will always find an ear. Or eye as in this case.

I've been around this Block several times over, passing the houses of "Simple-tons" as well as the "Complexities". I have Light Fusion (...a patented process BTW...) that can carry almost any applicable paint to new levels, and when used with Silver Fire paints, presents the absolute best ambient light performance of them all, especially when adjudged by the amount of lumens required from a PJ to do the job.

That's a real pisser for a few folks, who feel that I'm "too professional" to be included in the DIY ranks. But nothing I've ever created was made not to be available for a willing DIY'er to accomplish.

I'll admit, the earliest "over-achiever" I created, MM/SM was a grueling effort, requiring a pure Silver Metallic under coat and a MississippiMud Top Coat. But for a whitish Silver Screen, it produced 'basement dwelling' Black levels from PJs with anemic lumens and contrast, at a time when the single most detrimental thing about digital PJs were their Blacks.

So a bunch of people tried it, and more were happy than not they did. but IMO too many failed because of the difficulty of applying that , gooey Silver Metallic. Had I known about Delta's SM, things might of been different, but I also was refusing to consider spraying, because I felt it went against the mandate of 'simple DIY methods'. Yeah...I was a simple-ton once too. :p

But along came a Plastic Mirror to replace the Silver Metallic, and Light Fusion was born. However now, acquiring a large Plastic Mirror was the issue, as was spraying on the paints, and although I made such stock and equipment both popular and available through contacts, many still wanted a "roll-on - paint only" experience. And who can blame them?

So I created MMud-SE, and brought small amounts of Silver Metallic back into the equation. Then with the addition of PolyAcrylic Satin, and a change up in the Silver Metallic from Behr to Delta, RS-MaxxMudd was born, and that application is what started the rush toward Ambient Light performance that did not serve to crush colors or whites. But when those paints were added to a Mirror application, both MMud-SE and RS-MaxxMudd did even better, but even without a Mirror they were, and for the most part remain the simplest mixes around that do not employ multiple tints to achieve a selectable range of "Gray" .

The end of the story is presented in the Silver Fire application. That mix is far and away the singular most impressive performer (paint only-wise) ever presented to the DIY Screen community. But it's 7-8 separate ingredients, and the need to spray it for absolute best results has held it back, primarily because naysayers have ranted about how much trouble and effort it was for the casual DIY-er.

That wasn't enough ammunition for the likes of wbassett and mech. They had to exclaim that Mica based mixes were inferior, and hold neutral Gray up as the best possible choice. That garnered them no real attention, so they lapsed back into previous ideas and re-instituted the use of non-interference aluminum.

But they are now nose-up against a brick wall, and have no chisel to chip away with. So tantalizing teasers were made, and still are made elsewhere that they are working on lighter BW varieties. But it won't ever happen, because simply put, a lightened BW mix won't really be a BW application anymore. It won't perform any better than a good paint of the same hue and color. They have found this out, but it would serve no purpose to let others know.

I'm dedicated to DIY, and I'm always unbiased. but I'm also always straight up with members. I call a Spade a Spade, and i don't gloss over difficulties. Few if any DIY applications that a resplendent in performance come "easy'. The best advice for someone with high standards but no work ethic is to stay away from ever seeing what a really effusive DIY Screen application is capable of.

You saw my S-I-L-V-E-R application I posted. Not a single individual in the history of DIY has ever accomplished that level of performance, yet still, it's not an application for someone who wants to basically "hang and shoot".

DIY is rife with egotism. Pride in one's accomplishment is a factor in why people want to "build not buy". Even more so, that applies to those who create the DIY applications. but pride should never outweigh performance....or real facts. It's very hard to ascertain whats "real' and whats "hyped' without considerable review and study of what has gone before. But the answers are out there for those willing to delve deep into studying the Archives. For those who are unwilling....well, they must judge for themselves based upon what they read "currently". I've scaled back my postings to reduce the abuse and irritant level on the Forum. I attract the Lunatic and Flaming Fringe. We don't need that. But my reduction of participation has opened the door to those who make excessive use of claims, and excessively post (or bump) just to keep a "in their face" presence.

I don't won't go there, choosing to interact only when I have relevant content to offer. That is why I addressed Tryg's intrusion. He's always been obvious in his disdain for anything he doesn't promote or sell "Mfg Screen-wise" and his negative commentary is not needed or really even welcome on a Forum dedicated to DIY Screen applications. I've extended countless "Olive Branches" to him, and others on "Screens" and "PJs over 3K" but the fact is that my efforts run contrary to what matters most to them, and present a real challenge to their "Status Quo". Always have....and will continue to do so if I have any say in the matter.

So I wanted to write to you to give you an overview of the situation. I kinda chuckled about your questioning the validity of my statements about calbear's screen. I've chosen not to make issue of my involvement in his incredible project (...and it was extensive...well beyond the Screen itself...) up to now because those "other people' would have simply used it against me to show that I'm a professional "Screen maker" and not a DIY'er. . I'm simply a good DIY-er . Everything I do is 'DIY", and nothing I do cannot be taught to, nor is made unavailable to any willing DIY-er. Yes...I'm 30 years in to the Art of making Home Theaters, I was making them well before they were considered "popular". And so many have tried for years to get me booted off AVS, but they have not succeeded because I've never really violated any Rules. Stretched 'em a few times....yes. But never for self-aggrandizement, promotion of my "off line" business, or for any degree of profit made from a AVS member.

That has saved my ass, and nothing else. And that too is what chaps the asses of my discounters.

But it is...and remains "All Good". ;)

I hope I've given you food for thought, and perhaps a clearer understanding of DIY Screens. Leastwise as I see it...eh? And I wish you luck on whatever course you take, and if you ever need any advise or help....well, you know where to find it. ;)

Maurice
aka: MississippiMan

11 comments:

wbassett said...

Like I said, that was a long one!

Time to disect it now.

There is an inherent fallacy to the use of Aluminum's "Graying" tendencies. If enough Aluminum "Fine" is used to produce enough reflectivity and contrast enhancement to make a BW's performance be up to par with other "Mica Based" metallic mixes, the result is a dark mix. That cannot be changed or avoided. And that dark Gray is going to eat up more of a percentage of the lumens than is desirable, and serve to crush whites despite all the reflectivity (...the latter only helps colors to seem more vivid, but dull, gray "whites" spoils that effect and lessens the overall "PoP" and "Sizzle" of the image. It also restricts the size screen that can me considered unless one possesses a true Light cannon...

There is absolutely no 'fallacy', inherent or not. Aluminum is highly reflective and often even used for basic mirrors.

First a brief bit of history about the ‘Silver Screen’ that I posted elsewhere...

At the turn of the century, 1909 to be specific, motion pictures were becoming the rage. One problem that plagued the fledgling theater industry was that projectors and screen materials at that time were extremely limited and crude by today’s standards. This resulted in images being very dim and quite hard to see, but the public was still fascinated with moving pictures.

Adele DeBerri owned a theater in Chicago during this era. She was a unique individual, remember this was an era when women typically did not own and operate a business. Not only was she a pioneer in that respect, but she was an innovator as well. Adele had the idea to paint the screen image area with a silver paint that was highly reflective and therefore would reflect more light back at the viewing audience. That’s how the ‘Silver Screen’ was born. What many may not be aware of is Adele went on to developed a silver painted canvas projection screen that quickly became the standard for the industry. Da-Lite Screen Company, Inc. is the successor to the business founded in Chicago in 1909 by Adele DeBerri.

And guess what? Aluminum is often even used as a substitute for... you got it! Silver!

The rest of the comments- Actually the 'Fine' being talked about is Createx Auto Air Aluminum 'Fine'. That's not what was actually first used. The first thing used was Black Jack 5160 All Purpose Water Based Aluminum Paint. It is neither listed as 'fine' or course. It is though a very good pure aluminum paint source.

What makes aluminum and other non-interference methods better than a "Mica Based" metalic mix is that Mica bends and refracts light, a non-interference substance like Aluminum reflects light, not refracts it.

The reason why refraction is not desired is because it causes a color shift to happen, much like looking at some motor oil spilled in a puddle of water. Why anyone would want that for a screen is beyond me, but there are some that to this very day that still refuse to accept the known basic characteristics of Mica. It refracts... period. It also makes for very cool looking paintjobs on hotrod cars, you know, the ones that seem to change colors in different lighting and angles... Still nothing I personally would ever use for my screen or anything I'd recommend to anyone else to use either.

As far as the 'dark gray' eating up more of a percentage of lumens than is desireable',. well if we are talking about just a dark gray paint I would have to agree with that, but we're not talking about that. Again Aluminum is highly reflective so we're not dealing with a normal run of the mill gray paint as he is making it sound.

I can't post pictures in a comment, but if I could I could show whites that anyone would agree are white! Yet it's on one of these gray screens he claims spoils the whites.

"PoP" and "Sizzle"... both buzz words he loves to use! One man's 'pop' is another man's over saturated color bloooming image!

Lastly light cannons. This one was started by him and a few other detracters trying to make it sound like Black Widow was purely a specialty screen and could only be used by a very small percentage of projectors. Fact is Black Widow has a gain of .9, and for a very dark gray screen that is extremely respectable. To make that even more impressive, this was not done with lots of sheen and mica like Black Flame, Silver Fire, and MMudd have to resort to in order to up the gain.

Anyone that can use a 1.0 unity gain screen can also use a Black Widow, as long as they abide by the rules of minimum acceptable fL at the screen... but that's something our friend rarely mentions.

wbassett said...

"The single most unique aspect of Black Widow is how a beige Base serves as the offset / dilution factor to the aluminum's dark Gray consistency, and keeps the mix fairly neutral. Credit is due that a balance (...on the darker end...) was found, but quite honestly, that is all there is, and all that is possible."

Remind me to never let this man try to shoot an apple off my head because he is so far off the mark it isn't funny!

First it is EXTREMELY neutral, and remaining D65 neutral really is the difference between a great screen and a hack job.

If our friend understood the first thing about balancing out a color to make it neutral he'd understand why a pinkish beige was used. Quite frankly their method of adding gold toned craft paints does not 'balance out' their mix. Conversely it only moves the color imbalance in a different direction.

The problem is they try to color correct by eye, and everyone sees things slightly different. What looks good to them may look awful to someone else (and has as been reported as such by some of the complaints from people using the magical ever changing mix). They are also thinking additive when they should be thinking about how pigments work. Yet he's the 'professional'

As the saying goes, just because you've done something a million times doesn't mean it's right. It very well could be that you've made the same mistake a million times!

Once again, BW has not changed in the formula since it was released. Why? Because it is rock solid and works and performs extremely well. There is no need to change it because it works, and that's that.

That is something he can never say because they are constantly changing things.

wbassett said...

"If the amount of Aluminum is decreased to lessen the hue of "gray" then too much reflectivity is lost and the screen becomes merely a light gray screen with no claim to any appreciable benefits of a simple neutral gray paint.

Not quite and I really don't know how he came to this determination. How he can speak with such certainty about something he had nothing to do with the development of is amazing. I would accept a person's comments if they were at least knowledgeable on the topic, but not when they throw out opinions as facts and constantly contradict themselves.

"Add a higher percentage of Aluminum and you get granularity and abusive reflectivity along the lines of extreme retro-reflectivity."

Note quite sure what he even said!
"granularity and abusive reflectivity"?

We've used very high concentrations and ratios of aluminum and they were still angular reflective, not retro-reflective! I still am not sure what his point was though.

"All of this is, and has been well known. For years in fact. That is why the use of aluminum in this manner is / was essentially abandoned.....it presented too narrow a range of acceptable performance potential."

First things first, nobody, and I repeat nobody was using aluminum in the same way we did. Some played around with it as a very small ingrediant in an overly complex mix, and yes they abandoned it because they couldn't figure it out.

Others were using aluminum spray paint from cans, and were never able to get a uniform coating that didn't hot spot like crazy. Problem with cans... no way to color balance it, so between that and the spraying issues and hot spotting it too was abandoned.

In all my reading of the many many methods Maurice has tried and abandoned, I honestly do not recall him ever using aluminum, once he got past his facination and claims that clay based ceiling paints were 'the best' he went straight for mica. Why? Well Mica is sparklie and shiny!

This is why honest research and science is making improvements that are leaps and bounds above those of a person just perusing a craft store looking for shiny glittering things to throw in the vat.

wbassett said...

"For a few years, the powers behind BW railed against the use of reflective Mica in paint as being detrimental, even though testing and actual use proved that it has a wonderful range of adjust-ability. They were fixated on the use of simple neutral Grays....which failed to impress anyone."

As explained, Mica by nature refracts light. It is not what a person wants in a screen. Why is that so hard to comprehend? I didn't make that up either, it is the biggest characteristic of Mica and why people use it... to get a shimmery color changing look to whatever they paint with it.

There isn't enough space to go into why neutral gray is far superior to a color that 'looks' grayish. Neutral reflects all spectrum of light equally, a color doesn't. That is why neutral gray was always the Holy Grail of DIY gray screens.

As far as impressing people, the OTS neutral grays actually impressed everyone that tried them. They were even put up against MMud and the difference was virtually negligible, but we never hear that side of things from our friend.

Can a simple OTS gray be improved upon? Sure, and we did just that. Still though for the easiest screen out there that also performs very very well, a D65 neutral OTS gray is a great screen.

"And God forbid they make any attempt to come down on the side of Silver Fire, MMud-SE (silver edition) RS-MaxxMudd or ANY DIY Mix proved popular and useful by me and others. Sad that, because it all was based simply on avoiding validating any application I, and a few others had made popular through proven results.

Simply put, this ain't ever gonna happen! We've seen these screens and compared them to other DIY screens as well as some commercial screens and to be blunt, they did not perform anywhere near the level Maurice claims they do. To make matters worse, every single sample tested had very bad color pushes to them.

Basically they take the user choice out of things. By that I mean their screens either push blue or red hard. Depending on what mix a person is baited into using, they may never be able to calibrate out the push to their liking. If they like a warm image and the screen is already pushing red, then perhaps they can adjust it in somewhat, but what if they like a cooler image? They will never be able to get it quite to their liking. Same goes with their screens that push blue hard.

The very simple solution is to have a D65 neutral screen. That way a person can adjust it anyway they want, or... keep it fully D65 so it accurately reproduces exactly how the director intended things to look. None of their screens, I repeat none of their screens are neutral... no matter how many times they try to claim they are. As far as our fancy color charts, well, that's how we plot spectrophotometer readings. If someone thinks I'm being a prick here, just ask them for the readings they come up with. You won't get any, yet they will tell you their screens are neutral. They aren't. Ask for the proof, it's pretty easy to check.

As far as "even though testing and actual use proved that it has a wonderful range of adjust-ability"... well remember the saying about doing something a million times wrong just means you did something wrong a million times?

Seriously though, ask him for proof sometime. All you'll get will be poor quality screenies or ones that are extremely questionable... and at no time will he ever recalibrate to the screen he's comparing things too, and why should he? All he wants is for his to look the best so he can say it's the best.

That's not proof, that's very subjective opinions. Would you buy a car from someone like that?

Didn't think so.

Again, when they claim something, just ask what the L*ab readings are. =]

wbassett said...

"Instead they went after "a simple neutral Gray" and had to try to re-invent the use of non-interference powders, something I tried, reported on, and discounted back in 2004.(...a tinted base and one reflective ingredient...) believing that the DIY'ers would rally around a something less complex that was something different beyond the more complex mixes that performed so "over the top", but that required more effort to "get there".

Again I cannot begin to stress the importance of remaining D65 neutral with the screens we use. This is an industry standard and not something made up. Everyone from movie studios to television stations adhere to this standard, why shouldn't we? Especially when it's been proven it is very easy to get a basic neutral gray.

As far as re-inventing the use of non-interference methods, I don't ever recall Maurice using them. He's always been a Mica man. If he ever really tried them he'd abandon his methods and he'd have yet another mix of the month out there.

As far as the powders he mentioned, I'd like to see the posts he made on this, but most powders are micas, not a true non-interference substance. Again if he really tried them he never would have gone the route of mica, not after seeing how much better non-interference methods work.

I have to take a minute to talk about 'complex'. Just because something is more difficult does not automatically mean it has to be better. Sometimes it is just more complex and difficult is all. Maurice has yet to offer one shred of proof and hard data to back up anything he says now or in the past. It's pretty easy to just 'say' you have the best thing out there when you never have to actually prove it.

Keep this in mind people, this man sells this stuff commercially. If he can't prove or back up what he says, why would anyone want to buy something just because a person tells you it's the 'best'? If someone buys into that type of pitch, I bet they also have Monster speaker cables hooked up too!

"They then touted that their efforts were backed by having taken courses in Color Theory, and because they use extensive use of color mapping graphs. So their mix had to be superior....had to be the best yet. They were determined to supplant the popularity of proven DIY applications by sheer force of will and effort.

Well, that part is true! What we say actually is verified, validated, and backed up through actual color science as well as precision test equipment. I even regularly consult the head of the color science department at RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) I guess my question is this- Why is he saying that as if it is a bad thing? At least we back things up with real facts. How can that be bad? Oh, we also back them up with the exact same real world performance testing that he also uses as his only type of proof. In other words, we do what he does, but then we take it a step further by showing the actual specs and hard data proof.

Again, the easiest way to end all of this is just ask him for the L*ab readings and to see where his screen plots on a CIE Chromaticity graph. If it plots on or within +/-1 from the D65 reference, then yes he has a neutral screen.

I'll bet anyone a years salary he can't produce that information... yet... he claims to have not only 'the best' screen out there, but a neutral one to boot!

wbassett said...

"Instead they went after "a simple neutral Gray" and had to try to re-invent the use of non-interference powders, something I tried, reported on, and discounted back in 2004.(...a tinted base and one reflective ingredient...) believing that the DIY'ers would rally around a something less complex that was something different beyond the more complex mixes that performed so "over the top", but that required more effort to "get there".

Again I cannot begin to stress the importance of remaining D65 neutral with the screens we use. This is an industry standard and not something made up. Everyone from movie studios to television stations adhere to this standard, why shouldn't we? Especially when it's been proven it is very easy to get a basic neutral gray.

As far as re-inventing the use of non-interference methods, I don't ever recall Maurice using them. He's always been a Mica man. If he ever really tried them he'd abandon his methods and he'd have yet another mix of the month out there.

As far as the powders he mentioned, I'd like to see the posts he made on this, but most powders are micas, not a true non-interference substance. Again if he really tried them he never would have gone the route of mica, not after seeing how much better non-interference methods work.

I have to take a minute to talk about 'complex'. Just because something is more difficult does not automatically mean it has to be better. Sometimes it is just more complex and difficult is all. Maurice has yet to offer one shred of proof and hard data to back up anything he says now or in the past. It's pretty easy to just 'say' you have the best thing out there when you never have to actually prove it.

Keep this in mind people, this man sells this stuff commercially. If he can't prove or back up what he says, why would anyone want to buy something just because a person tells you it's the 'best'? If someone buys into that type of pitch, I bet they also have Monster speaker cables hooked up too!

"They then touted that their efforts were backed by having taken courses in Color Theory, and because they use extensive use of color mapping graphs. So their mix had to be superior....had to be the best yet. They were determined to supplant the popularity of proven DIY applications by sheer force of will and effort.

Well, that part is true! What we say actually is verified, validated, and backed up through actual color science as well as precision test equipment. I even regularly consult the head of the color science department at RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) I guess my question is this- Why is he saying that as if it is a bad thing? At least we back things up with real facts. How can that be bad? Oh, we also back them up with the exact same real world performance testing that he also uses as his only type of proof. In other words, we do what he does, but then we take it a step further by showing the actual specs and hard data proof.

Again, the easiest way to end all of this is just ask him for the L*ab readings and to see where his screen plots on a CIE Chromaticity graph. If it plots on or within +/-1 from the D65 reference, then yes he has a neutral screen.

I'll bet anyone a years salary he can't produce that information... yet... he claims to have not only 'the best' screen out there, but a neutral one to boot!

wbassett said...

"And because of a ridiculous amount of promotion and effort across several Forum fronts, they managed by sheer force of inundation to do exactly that. But the backlash started almost immediately. BW in original form is quite a dark Gray, and the amount of Aluminum in it MUST be masked by the darkness or it would be far too reflective..

He likes to call a spade a spade? Well he's the king of over hype. As well as thread hi-jacking! He makes his point through shear dominance, and if that doesn't work, he resorts to intimidation. If that doesn't work, he makes things up and flat out lies. Then if that doesn't work he goes to Private messaging people so the other party can't contest the garbage he is spewing.

There really was no backlash, only a 'witch hunt'. There were people that did not like being proven wrong even if it meant they really were. Over six months was devoted to trying to disprove and discredit Black Widow and in the end the number one nay sayer couldn't do it. In fact they now have a Black Widow screen of their own.

Maurice likes to cherry pick his information and neglected to mention what I just said. Right now he is the biggest and pretty much only one saying BW is inferior... and it makes perfect sense why he says it... He wants to sell his slopped together commercial paints. Every person that he can talk into using his DIY concoction is more 'testimonials' he can add to his 'list' of satisfied customers. It's all about creating the illusion he has something truly unique for sales reasons. I forgot to mention, Maurice makes even more money doing commercial installations, so by padding his list of 'satisfied users/customers' he can do a pretty fancy sales pitch on an unsuspecting target, er, potential client.

Again, just ask for the specs. Any reputable company will have plenty of data and specs to prove what they are saying.

Food for thought... we are not commercial and yet we can and do provide specs and proof. Why can't he do the same since he is after all a commercial guy selling this for a profit? If he can't prove what he's saying about his DIY stuff, does anyone really believe that his commercial stuff is any better?

"Dilute the Gray with a white and all you have is a reduction in both ambient light potential (...that was their original goal in competition with Silver Fire...) and aluminum's over stated reflectivity."

Well... to a point. And no, this wasn't an original 'goal'. The only 'goal' and intent was to design a better screen than what people were being offered, better and easier at the same time.

And once again, Aluminum has NOT overstated it's reflectivity. As stated, it is often used as the surface for a mirror. Unless he's saying mirrors are bunk!

What has his panties in a wad is Black Widow and it's lighter versions coming out employ virtually the same methods as his precious 'light fusion' but at a fraction of the cost and ten fold the ease of construction. (What he hates most of all though is Black Widow really works)

'Light Fusion' as he explains it just doesn't work the way he explains it. But that is the topic for a blog all in and of itself!

"The consistency of the aluminum flakes is not the answer....it's already well known that the "Fine" variety is the only acceptable choice because of granularity issues.

He's repeating himself now, and it still doesn't make his statements any more correct than when he first said it.

wbassett said...

"If one is aware of these facts, one can see why there has been such a delay in rolling out any lighter mix.....that is because they are distressed at finding that what Mississippiman told them 1 year ago is coming to pass. That they have a limited application that works well within a narrow range. But only almost 'as good as" other substantiated performers. I say "almost" because aluminum's caveats make the use of a darker BW mix problematical and dependent wholly upon screen size, and PJ luminosity."

No MississipiMan said no such thing, well yeah he said it in his drive by shooting posts he was making, but never did he say it in a civil sit down conversation.

It took me a month or so to sort out OTS (Off The Shelf) D65 neutral grays. First I had to identify what exactly we were looking for.

In the beginning I found an N7 neutral gray sold by GTI for photo boths. It was looking like a true neutral was not going to be found off the shelf. Then I discovered something that really changed everything. The sole person doing all the color readings at the time was doing them wrong! Well wrong is a harse way of saying it, maybe more like incorrectly.

What he was doing was he was using C as his illuminant reference and converting everything to C. This is the standard in the art world, but when it comes to film and video they use D65. C and D65 are very close, but it does change the values. A D65 neutral when referenced to C takes on an RGB 'V' curve. This was very hard to get people to accept there was a difference, but there really is. Once things were properly converted to D65, then I was able to start determining true OTS neutrals. With the help of RIT I established some very tight specifications for what constitutes a true D65 neutral gray. I ran these specs past the guys at RIT and also the professors at the college I went to for color science, RPI (Rensselaer Polytechnical Institute) and both agreed that the specifications were valid.

From there I started looking at OTS grays in the correct illuminant reference, and I found many neutrals out there just waiting to be use. Everything from a medium gray screen (N8) to a light, almost white looking gray screen (N9).

The next thing that was found was that a person didn't need to add satin polyurethane to get gain, all they needed was to increase the sheen of the pain itself. Most people were using flat paints for their screens. Paint manufacturers were now offing a sheen between flat and an eggshell finish... we finally had a true matte finish screen available right off the shelf, and for as little as $14!

All of that work took around six months. Needless to say the development of a screen that took things to the next level wasn't an over night event.

Black Widow started by putting pure aluminum paint into Kilz2 primer. What was expected was a light silvery grayish screen that was very reflective as compared to a normal white paint. What happened was the Aluminum didn't make the white primer a silvery color, it went dark, very very dark.

At first I thought this was going to be a bust until I put the test panel up against one of the best gray screens I have ever seen, which happened to be an OTS neutral gray! (Sherwin Williams Gray Screen in the Duration Matte finish). To give an idea just how good Sherwin William's Gray Screen is- It smoked a HoloDisplay HoloVega screen, which is only a $2,000 plus commercial screen specifically designed as a high ambient light screen.

That was an OTS gray. The original aluminum test screen blew Sherwin William's Gray screen away! There was absolutely no contest between the two. The only problem, I could see a blue push with my eyes.

In reality this was no more of a push than Black Flame or Silver Fire had, but to me any push was a degradation in overall screen performance. (Interesting side note: Silver Fire and Black Flame are one in the same. The name was changed when Maurice and pbmaxx went commercial. Being commercial they couldn't 'push' Black Flame on AVS, because of the obvious commercial tie. They changed the name to Silver Fire at that point)

So the next thing was to nail the aluminum based screen down to a true D65 neutral. That took quite awhile and a team of us worked on it for months, until we had another breakthough. We found the key to color balancing just about anything. Unfortunately I am not going to mention how because that's our little discovery and secret. I know that sounds bad, but if other people played nice and weren't starting forum wars over anything and everything, well that part probably would have been shared.

Anyway, it took months to iron out OTS D65 neutral grays (I don't feel bad at all about that because for the previous five years AVS was trying to do the same and couldn't, so I did in six months what they were trying five years to do). Black Widow took almost a year from start to finish.

And it is finished as a true ambient light gray screen that works just as well in a dedicated environment. The formula have not changes once. Again that's something our friend cannot say.

Some people are simply not inky black people and they want a lighter overall screen. Others had very low lumen projectors and they couldn't handle any N8 shade screen, so Black Widow was definitely out seeing it is an N7.5 gray (but with the gain and reflectivity it performs more on the lines of an N8-N8.3 gray screen).

A lighter version of Black Widow is in the works and will be presented sometime. I just wanted to explain that when we do something we do it right the first time. Two years from now a person that made a Black Widow screen doesn't have to ask themself if they were screwed because we constantly changed the formula and maybe their screen isn't as good as we said... because after all the guys that constantly change their mixes (ehem... MM and his constantly changing mixes anyone?!) always say their 'newest' mix is the 'best'.

Once again, without any type of measuremenst or specs, how can they say his with as much certainty as they do? Me thinks it's because they will just change the mix a month down the road anyway!

Now does anyone reading this understand why color science and actual specs and readings are important?

So yes there are new screens coming. No, just because they weren't cranked out every week like other do doesn't mean we are backed in any corners or 'distressed about anything in any way shape or form.

Right now we have the best gray screen available, and I'll put it up against any N8 screen out there. Also Don from our team developed a killer N9 screen that we've yet to see anything come close to it in performance.

HTS may not have as many options as AVS, but I'd put ours against any of their any time.

wbassett said...

"Quantum, for any Paint, Substrate, or combination of Paint on Substrate to be a well balanced DIY application, it simply has to be adjustable to a wide variety of circumstances. BW is not in that grouping.Yes, it works....but so do several other applications. And some of them work decidedly better over a much wider range.

The original Black Widow is a Firehawk killer. It also dusted the dark Silver Fire/Black Flame as well. It is a dark gray screen that plays well with the lighter gray screens. Seeing how it anchors the blacks at the N7.5 level but provides whites on par with N8 or lighter screens, it actually has a built in range of functionality.

We do acknowledge some people have a desire for a lighter screen, not quite as light as Don's Cream&Sugar, but also not as dark as the Black Widow. The development team is working on that but as explained we don't throw something out there until it's a fully finish product that we all stand behind.

XFS has Black Flame as their dark screen, and then MaxxMud as their lighter screen. In between they have a mess of constantly changing 'colors' they pitch to people as viable screens. None are consistant, and everything we've seen varied wildly from user to user simply because their 'color correcting' method is so touchy that even a drop can alter the final screen. Thing is their color correction method is total BS too. It was and is totally done by eye and yet they claim it to be neutral without ever testing it.

Well we did, and many different samples too. None were neutral, and all were different. At least with Black Widow you're going to get the same thing over and over no matter who makes the screen. I think that says volumes right there.

"Sadly for some DIY'ers with no patience, or even less skills, the desire for "simple" will continue to rule their decision making process. And so being, over-hyped and excessively promoted promises of "The best results possible in the easiest manner." will always find an ear. Or eye as in this case."

I'll put Black Widow up against Black Flame/Silver Fire any day, any time. The true hype machine is MississippiMan. Just search through the archives and anyone can easily find all the epic fights he's had because of him hi-jacking someone's thread and inundating it with countless screenies and then all his sly comments about client A,and client B. Black Widow is contained to one thread on AVS. If someone else starts a thread, we can't be held accountable for that. We have never invaded another person's thread to 'hype' BW and trash talk the other person's screen. Maurice definitely cannot say the same.

He not us is the one that hypes and spins things. Black Widow was first presented with much fanfare, but because it works!

We have people in multiple countries using Black Widow screens, and... it is even being used as the screens for a commercial flight simulator school. The school said they tried numerous commecial and DIY methods and Black Widow simply kicked ass on all of them. They told us the detail level was incredible and the screens ambient light tolerance was unblieveable.

I don't know of any other DIY screen that can make that claim. Yet Maurice keeps saying it's a one trick pony and only adequate at best.

We spent a lot of time and money and gave this to the community free and we don't make a dime off of any of this. Who sounds more like they are protecting their 'turf' now? Us or the commercial seller/installer guy?

Just a point to ponder is all.

wbassett said...

"I've been around this Block several times over, passing the houses of "Simple-tons" as well as the "Complexities". I have Light Fusion (...a patented process BTW...) that can carry almost any applicable paint to new levels, and when used with Silver Fire paints, presents the absolute best ambient light performance of them all, especially when adjudged by the amount of lumens required from a PJ to do the job.

A blantant statement meant to say "I'm a pro, they aren't."

Again Light Fusion just work the way he claims. Not in the sense that it has a 180 degree viewing cone. That is simply impossible and overstated and exaggerated claims. If anyone doubts what I am saying, ask a real scientist, or better yet, ask them for some actual data and specs and see what he says.

"That's a real pisser for a few folks, who feel that I'm "too professional" to be included in the DIY ranks. But nothing I've ever created was made not to be available for a willing DIY'er to accomplish.

No it's not that he calls himself a 'professional', it's the fact that he attacks everyone else. It's not just us, do a simple search of the archives and anyone can see all the fights he's started and threads that were closed because of him... which is exactly what he wants. Shut down anyone and everyone that offers something better.

"I'll admit, the earliest "over-achiever" I created, MM/SM was a grueling effort, requiring a pure Silver Metallic under coat and a MississippiMud Top Coat. But for a whitish Silver Screen, it produced 'basement dwelling' Black levels from PJs with anemic lumens and contrast, at a time when the single most detrimental thing about digital PJs were their Blacks.
Again, his claims with no proof other than screenies he was showing, and some were contested and proved to be blatantly doctored photos.

So far all throughout this 'PM' he sent he never once offered up any shred of actual proof for anything, just his 'opinions' and that's it.

mechman said...

Excellent post!